henriiik the artiiiist

Yeah exactly what shitdog said, it's not that they're bigots for not having more diverse artists, it's just kind of sad in a "society is shitty" kind of way. I don't think anyone is saying cishet white guys shouldn't make music... I find it a little weird that anyone would interpret wishing for more diversity in PC Music as *antagonism* towards cis, straight, white men considering we are all huge fans of said men... On a more positive note we could highlight the queer, trans and people of color who are involved in PC Music and related affiliates.

There's Finn Diesel, Ponibbi, Guy Akimoto, Sarah Midori-Perry is the vocalist for Kane West's other group (Kero Kero Bonito) and IIRC did the vocals on Good Price, potentially QT... Probably more that I'm forgetting, please chime in!

Whattt oh man I always interpreted that as meaning he's over 5'8" in height, feeling dumb now. Also wtf it's on the day of my first exam & also popcube...I feel like there's some freaky May 8th synergy going on

Exactly this! For some people it might be seen as "shallow" in some way to wish there were more Queer, Trans, PoC in music or in any field but you have to look at in the way that rarely do we get to see people like us put into the spotlight in positive ways that aren't stereotypes of our identity! I'm only going to speak for myself when I say this but representation means everything! To see people like you be successful and create things that people enjoy is incredibly inspiring. Cishet white guys get to see this all around them in almost every field of music and artform even ones they weren't "originally" found in.



EDIT: And like I really don't want to come off as antagonistic! So I hope I'm not, sometimes I think my tone can be really pointed. It's really great that more people are accepting things that are more feminine but at the same time it shouldn't be some struggle to like hide your "masculine" identity so you can make "feminine" music. Like this is gonna be the meanest I ever sound on this forum I think but's it's the whole fact of PoC, Queer, and Trans people having safe spaces and having circles of art where they're able to express themselves and then a lot of the time cishet white men come in and appropriate these things and get a LOT of credit for it. I'm not really saying this has happened with the whole PC Music and everything surrounding them scene because I don't have some omnipresent comprehensive view of everything and everyone in such a huge internet scene but yeah. This is pretty much where things get touchy. Like it's great that straight guys are I guess in a way freeing themselves from the "masculine" stereotypes put on them, but it also sucks that people who have been doing these types of things (not exactly this specific type of music by any means but just the celebration of femininity and genderbending) before them are then put in the shadow so we can congratulate SOPHIE and A. G. Cook for making music that you "wouldn't expect a cishet white guy to make".  I also feel like in my opinion LGBTQIA people don't really have a great representation in the scene! I'm not saying the people that are representing the community aren't amazing but there's so few and far between! And people (not just this forum I'm not trying to throw shade on this forum at all) still misgender ponibbi even in interviews. And Finn Diesel is great but he's not someone we get to see release a lot of music! Which like isn't anyone's fault he's obviously working hard on design, journalism, mass-media etc.

Overall, it's great that cis white guys are able to now more easily and freely express their identities and not be afraid to be feminine but unfortunately people who are actually queer still have troubles being able to do this out in the real world! Every day (for me) is a struggle in that regard!

I love that this is able to be a civil discussion rather than one based upon an us vs them mentality which I don't think really goes anywhere. Let me start off by saying that I understand I am a part of a majority, but I feel that makes an important point; because the LGBTQIA (intersexual and asexual? I'd like to be up to date!) community as a whole is quite a lot smaller than the cishet (way better than cisstraight) community, it only serves as a logical conclusion that most music or art collectives would have similar demographics UNLESS the content of said art intended to appeal or coincidentally happened to appeal to a specific demographic.

As you articulated quite well shitdog, I have always felt the pressures of masculinity pressed upon me as I imagine every "sexed at birth by the doctor male" has experienced. Although I have not felt outcasted in that I am hetero and white, those pressures rather than outcasting me made me feel like I had blinders on and couldn't enjoy things the way girls could (now that I think back I straight up had tons of polly pocket stuff when I was a kid, right along with z-bots and hot wheels) whilst still being attracted to them. Seeing people like SOPHIE and AG Cook etc. embrace the feminine in a way that I had always felt limited or unable to explore artistically empowered me a hell of a lot and has influenced my music and art ever since.

Now, when I see posters (here and on ILX) mentioning stuff about how the cishetness of a lot of the BGB community is taking the spotlight away from potential LGBTQIA artists, and how they are co-opting femininity, it just further I guess... pushes me back artistically and makes me feel like I am in a box of masculinity as well. And also journalists as you have said shitdog, saying that the cishet guys from PC Music are making music that one "wouldn't expect a cishet white guy to make" definitely contributes to that. Anyways, I feel like I am rambling and I hope this makes sense.

EDIT: In no way trying to equate exactly the experiences that the LGBTQIA community has experienced to my own, just sort of trying to make level ground for the discussions and try to connect and understand is all.

Add le1f to the list! Can't wait for Koi

I would like to add that I do feel PCM has appealed disproportionately to people who aren't cishet men. In my experience anyway, their live events are full of a lot more queer and gender nonconforming people and a lot less "bros" than your average dance music event (& I go to a lot of raves/shows). Although the music is what drew me to PCM shows in the first place, I REALLY REALLY appreciated the demographics as I felt a lot safer among PCM fans than your average EDM concertgoers. In my experience, the presence of "bros" specifically tends to reduce my enjoyment of an event and makes it more likely I will be harassed or get my feet stepped on or be knocked over or something.

During the PCM SXSW events, while I did get pushed around a bit by men who were overly excited and probably didn't realize they were endangering others by moshing so hard, for the most part I enjoyed being surrounded by people who were dancing and having a good time. I really loved the eccentric fashion and friendliness of the crowd, although it got more bro-y as the night went on and more people showed up. I would never say that this fandom should exclude anybody, but the reality is that as it becomes more mainstream there are more bros and when there are more bros, women get pushed to the margins both through sexist discourse and literally pushed away at live events. Thinking specifically of the PCM SXSW showcase at Empire Garage, when SOPHIE went on at the end of the night, the crowd went wild which was fun, but myself and a lot of the other women there had to move away from the stage because the guys were being too aggressive. The few girls I saw in the front were literally pinned up against the stage/equipment and I was nearly pushed to the ground several times. The same thing happened during the QT set when people were trying to get the cans, and when I spoke to QT the next day she said she was also alarmed by how aggressive the crowd got at times.

I've kind of lost track of where I was going with this novel of a post... Other than bros shoving me around is exactly what I DON'T want PCM to become and I hope it doesn't take that direction.

this annoys me

i hate how identify politics has seeped its way into everything. can't you just like artists without making it about what's between their legs or what arbitrary color their skin is?

why do you even care? i don't. i judge people by their actions, by their words, by their art. i dont give two shits what their identity is as its not really relevant

I feel like the whole QT being non binary thing is meant to contribute more to the whole "absurd energy drink promotional tool" framework of the project, rather than being a direct statement on gender identity or the gender binary. At the same time, I think it still contributes to a larger theme of gender identity and binary blurring present within SOPHIE's work in particular, and to a lesser extent PC Music as a whole. I feel like, while actual representation may be lacking, which is a definite issue and legitimate criticism, this is something PC Music (or I guess SOPHIE more specifically) does right, in that their work actually engages in the blurring of gender roles and the undermining of the gender binary. And like, idk, personally I see Cook's favouring of "feminine imagery" or whatever, as being an undermining of gender roles rather than an "appropriation of female imagery" (an argument that is gender binarist in it's assumption that femininity and masculinity belong to men and women, respectively). In terms of music acts that actually get coverage and stuff, in the way that PC Music and SOPHIE does, these aren't really themes that are explored or discussed that often. I can't really think of many big dance acts that are concerned with making explorations of, or undermining, the idea of gender roles. As much as this whole discourse would be more valuable if it was actually being explored by trans or non binary artists, I still think it's a good thing that these issues are being explored by acts that actually get media attention. I also feel like even just PC Music's role as a dance music scene that is more concerned with female vocals and "feminine imagery", rather than the whole serious masculine men making serious masculine music feel of a lot of other underground dance scenes, as a positive thing in terms of representation.
But yeah, definitely would like to see some more POC and trans representation. And I do feel like that even if the whole QT thing was meant to contribute to the weird energy drink angle of the project, rather than a comment on gender, it's still kinda shitty and counter productive to have a cis performer say they're non binary for the sake of a character. Like I feel like that's the closest PC Music have come to "appropriating an identity", rather than doing that by using "feminine imagery" or whatever. But, and this isn't meant to be a defense or anything, we need to remember that PC Music is still growing, and it's still made up of a relatively small group of close knit people, so we can only hope that as the label expands it includes more POC/trans/queer performers.
Hopefully that all makes sense, I just saw this discussion and wanted to contribute to it because I've thought a bit about PC Music in relation to representation and stuff.