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Post by loukessler on Jun 8, 2015 18:43:36 GMT
Hey guys, I'm not trying to rain on the parade here, but Lotic went off on PCM on a recent FB post and I wanted to discuss it with yall. You guys always seem to bring thoughtful, diverse, and interesting opinions in discussions so I'd like to hear what you guys think. Heres the quote: "“i told you” isn’t even the right response to this. like, i understand that white people don’t feel like they have ‘tribal’ music or any ‘real culture’ in general, but to me this is more a result of press/club culture over-intellectualizing music and being too curious about ‘mysterious’ producers, congratulating mediocrity and creating false heroes because we’re so desperate to save our clubs. and i get it. but. you can congratulate pc music et al. for their mystery and ‘clever’ use of ‘irony’ or you can just investigate and realize that it’s merely a vapid art project by a handful of rich kids (mostly male, with female avatars btw) that’s diluting the club pool and that your making excuses for their boring music is part of the problem. you actually don’t have to pretend that anything that’s even vaguely non-conforming is good or cool? there is so much music being made by incredibly talented queers and people of color that it’s almost always comical to read headlines about straight white musicians. i personally never click on them, and i would actually bet money (of which i have little) that no other queer/poc gave a shit about pc music or ten walls until, like, today. and that’s because, for some people, music is still a medium reserved for genuine expressions of emotion or feeling (the last one?), as opposed to a way to explore a concept. this, and the ten walls incident, is upsetting, but there is absolutely nothing surprising about either incident to anyone that has a real investment in protecting these spaces, to anyone who NEEDS these spaces in order to survive. not monetarily, but NEED in terms of staying sane, in terms of exploring themselves, in terms of being free and escaping the world and the status quo, even if just for a night. and i want to be clear that i’m not vehemently against conceptual music. i think it’s important and has its place. concepts help us keep our bigger projects on track. everyone loves a new perspective! but ‘conceptual’ and ‘mysterious’ usually turn out to be an abdication of responsibility (there’s nothing brave about not showing your face and nothing exciting about having nothing real to say). and we can’t be afraid of emotional or confrontational music. since when has music not been political? since when have we not turned to music when we need uplifting or comfort? really sorry to get so dramatically romantic and i usually just channel my frustrations into my own music but i’m actually just *not having it* in general right now and neither should you and i’m upset that we all just kind of allowed these people to ‘blow up’ based on hardly anything. it’s a fucking distraction. also, who doesn’t know who toumani diabaté is?! and anal is amazing?!? anyway *opens ableton" Article about GFOTY's comments: www.factmag.com/2015/06/08/gfoty-criticised-after-toumani-sidiki-diabate-comments/
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Post by friopi on Jun 8, 2015 19:01:14 GMT
I'm just going to post a few thoughts because from my point of view there is nothing to debate here.
1. What she said was undeniably shitty and I'm glad she apologized. The whole "satirizing racism by being racist" trope is tired, misguided and almost never works as intended. I'm relieved she didn't try to defend that statement because it would not have gone well.
2. You can enjoy something despite it having problematic elements. (In fact, if you're even remotely conscious of problems in society it's almost impossible to find something devoid of any problematic elements.) You can criticize problematic elements of something you enjoy while still enjoying it. That's where I would place myself in regards to this issue. I think what GFOTY said was shitty but at the same time I continue to enjoy her art and PC music as a whole.
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Post by ¬ on Jun 8, 2015 19:09:21 GMT
This is pretty terribly written (and when someone says something incredibly racist is not the time to go on about "concepts" or some shit? But conversely I'm attempting not to defend PC Music on the grounds that they're my babys and they make my favourite music ever) but he does definitely have some good points which are important to listen to. Racism is a big issue in music journalism in general, and it's pretty important to remember that these guys are white when praised by some publications. Foolish to blame the fans too rather than even mention GFOTY by name
EDIT: But I feel I should stress again what she said is inexcusable & this is a perfectly valid response
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Post by twigs on Jun 8, 2015 19:28:19 GMT
what the fuck does most of that even mean
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Post by ignatz on Jun 8, 2015 19:30:03 GMT
This couldn't be more predictable if it had been scripted. People have been chomping at the bit for a "PC Music is PROBLEMATIC" angle but come up with nothing more than "they use women as avatars". Now people have something to really chew on: a single badly worded joke in a text message.
That said, I don't expect this to actually build up much, since for all the talk of PCM stealing attention from unknown queer PoC they're not actually that famous. Maybe Pitchfork will pick it up and there will be another round of "that shit is just art kids making nightcore!" tweets and backpatting. Then Mark Kozelek will say something dumb and they'll all get mad at him and it'll all be forgotten and life will go on...
lol at the idea that no queer or PoC people enjoy PC Music though... or that not showing your face = cowardice and lack of substance... this post is more and more of a mess the more I read it.
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Post by loukessler on Jun 8, 2015 19:33:44 GMT
I think that music transcends race, sexual orientation, class, etc. Creating music and self expression is a HUMAN thing. Not a black or a white, or gay, or straight thing, etc.
However I don't condone what GFOTY said and I do believe It's important to acknowledge the problems or racism, sexism, classicism, etc, and work to fix them.
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kilua
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by kilua on Jun 8, 2015 19:39:13 GMT
Hmm...
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neko65
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by neko65 on Jun 8, 2015 20:02:28 GMT
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Post by wuchi on Jun 8, 2015 20:05:43 GMT
First off, I'm surprised to hear Lotic call PC Music "merely a vapid art project by a handful of rich kids (mostly male, with female avatars btw)". He was supposed to be playing the same show as AG Cook and Danny L harle for one of the MOMA PS1 Warmup sessions, and now hearing that he holds their work in such disdain, I am wondering if he still plans on doing the same session. I'd be massively disappointed if he doesn't - Heterocetera has been one of my favorite releases so far this year, and I'd be bummed if he wasn't going to be performing it live.
That said - I'm still genuinely confused about how exactly what GFOTY said was overtly racist. Racial, yes: she made a comparison between the music of a black band and a white band. The 'tribal music' comment was admittedly off-color, but in playing a persona of posh, trashy, ignorant Londoner who doesn't know who Toumani & Sidiki Diabaté are, it makes sense. The joke, and her whole persona really, is about ignorant wealthy white people, not the performers. Hell, in the next text she even said "Now I'm basking in the V.I.P. section drinking wine from a caraf and thinking about the weather".
This whole controversy reminds me of the "Cancel Colbert" Twitter hysteria that occurred a few months ago because Stephen made a joke using Asian stereotypes and racist stereotypes to lampoon the ACTUAL cultural insensitivity of the owner of the Washington Redskins. Out of context, it would seem racist, but that's part of what satire is about: creating an exaggerated caricature about the person you're critiquing to make a greater point. If anything, I've heard more explicitly prejudiced sincere statements from people on the other side of the argument. Again, to quote Lotic: " it’s almost always comical to read headlines about straight white musicians. i personally never click on them, and i would actually bet money (of which i have little) that no other queer/poc gave a shit about pc music or ten walls until, like, today."
At the end of the day, every magazine is looking for a way to generate clicks and pageviews. I feel like unless they are making a lengthy leftist statements about privilege, it's hard for any artist to say ANYTHING about racial subjects and not get held under this kind of intense scrutiny. There are definitely important subjects involving race and identity that deserve to be discussed,, but attention should be focused on the people who are actually saying arrogant and hurtful things (looking at you, Ten Walls). From what I have seen at SXSW and Popcube, PC have a very diverse and open-minded audience with a fanbase consisting of many LGBT and POC individuals. They haven't warranted this kind of controversy.
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Post by ¬ on Jun 8, 2015 20:07:11 GMT
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Post by loukessler on Jun 8, 2015 20:28:16 GMT
I feel like a lot of these 'controversies' are just clickbate for media companies. Artist says racist thing! - feel outrage! - read think piece! - generate us revenue!....
If you want to transcend race, sexual orientation, class, etc, it's probably not a good idea to start by ignoring certain races or sexual orientations based on those things alone.
PCM has themes but I wouldn't call them conceptual by any means. They are playing with themes such as identity, sexuality, gender, commerce, and digital avatars in the information age. But they are NOT conceptual. They transcend conceptual narratives as well as irony. And because they make really nuanced points on these subjects people seem to really misconstrue them. When things are left ambiguous, as almost everything in PCM is, people misinterpret it and fill in their 'problematic' narratives, as there were claims or racism, sexism, and classicism before the whole gfoty thing.
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a_M
Junior Member
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Post by a_M on Jun 8, 2015 21:33:39 GMT
wait. is she attributing traditional african music to young a white indie band? — Le1f ☥ (@le1fny) June 8, 2015 let's be clear... Bombay Bicycle Club, Dirty Projectors, all these indie bands rip off what is traditional West and Central African music. — Le1f ☥ (@le1fny) June 8, 2015 in '07 when this was the big indie sound, nobody knew where it came from. i personally felt it was ripping my culture, intentionally or not. — Le1f ☥ (@le1fny) June 8, 2015 www.thefader.com/2015/06/08/gfoty-bombay-bicycle-clubsurely this was the point she was trying to make in the first place??? needless to say, she completely missed the mark (referencing black face, using the word "tribal" in that way - yikes) but tbh the 'joke' actually makes more sense in light of Le1f's comments?
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Post by ignatz on Jun 8, 2015 21:41:19 GMT
^^ That's exactly how I took it when I read it, seemed like an obvious jab at how these music festivals are full of indie bands playing trendily African-influenced music. But then, a lot of people responding to this (at least on FB/Twitter) genuinely don't seem to realize GFOTY is a character, which makes me think they probably didn't even read the article. No time, when you gotta hurry up and register your outrage on Twitter.
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Post by oc on Jun 8, 2015 22:14:13 GMT
Well this is awkward...
People say dumb shit sometimes and this was one of those times. She said sorry. I don't think there's much more to it than that.
It's a lesson learned but I somehow doubt she's the next Nick Griffin.
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Post by flaneur on Jun 9, 2015 0:46:45 GMT
While I agree with Lotic regarding the general lack of exposure and appreciation for queer and POC artists in the vast majority of musical scenes, the rest of that post is incredibly off the mark. To say that PC Music's audience is devoid of queer or POC fans is hilariously incorrect, as anyone who has gone to a PC Music event (or visited this forum, for that matter) would see, and it's evident that he's only interested in venting his knee-jerk reactions on social media and making sweeping generalizations about PC Music's artists and message without doing any sort of digging into their media releases or applying critical thinking to their music outside of saying it's "vapid" or "boring".
Was GFOTY's joke tasteless and insensitive (especially seen out of context)? Yes. Should she have known better, especially considering her socioeconomic background and demographic? Yes. But she took responsibility for her actions and owned up to it. Considering GFOTY has very obviously been Polly playing the character of a caricatured ignorant club kid since the very beginning, which many of the social media dogpilers seem to be unaware of, there's no reason to believe that this was anything but a misfired joke that Polly will surely learn from. Comparisons to Ten Walls, whose rant equating homosexuality and pedophilia was pretty entirely out of the blue and seemingly genuine, are ridiculous. GFOTY has always been a character, and I think Polly breaking that character that she hasn't deviated from on social media for years in order to apologize is demonstrative of how regretful she is. Crucifying her, especially for the sake of a "narrative" or for tearing down a trend, is too extreme a reaction. Give the woman a second chance.
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