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Post by rampface on Jun 9, 2015 0:58:08 GMT
This is all really silly imo. Also the comment about not clicking on white male musicians or whatever... WTF hahahaha. Get the sticks out of your butts
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Post by ¬ on Jun 9, 2015 1:34:40 GMT
now that I've calmed down, all this (& looking at Twitter) tells me is that horrible vindictive people and bodies, waiting for PC Music (and this isn't even PC Music by the way, it's Polly fucking up on her own) to fuck up just to be "right" are finally happy Whilst what she said WAS clearly very offensive, ill-thought out and racist, the only legitimate, reasonable outrage I've come across was Le1f's. And not a single opinion seems to actually aim to understand what happened. I've learned a lot about the internet today I wonder if she even knew the texts would be published considering how slapped-together and messy the original article was
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Post by twigs on Jun 9, 2015 2:03:19 GMT
of course it was a joke about the "appropriation" of traditionally african music by white indie bands in the context of a white, vapid festival-goer commenting on how actual traditionally african music reminds her (GFOTY, not polly) of a white indie band
edit: and yeah, this is largely the editor's fault for not editing the "article" better
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Post by raindro on Jun 9, 2015 4:46:46 GMT
Soooo... Y'all listen to Toumani Diabate? I think he's the greatest musician alive. His son also makes some wonderful hip-hop. check it. I think A.G. is like the second greatest musician alive, way up there at least. And Danny and Sophie are hot on his heels. Point being it's just incredibly bizarre for me that people could not like pc music. I guess about as weird to me as someone seeing Toumani live and only being able to joke about it. Whatever.
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Post by Keith_Courage on Jun 9, 2015 5:39:42 GMT
It's pretty much in poor taste coming from GFOTY, though that's kind of something I would've expected from such a brash caricature she's performing with. That's why I think it can be good sometimes to leave that persona on the stage, so we can get to know the person behind it, who I'm sure is a very smart and awesome individual, but that's not really my point. I agree with what all of you mentioned already. I feel its unfair for Lotic to aim his criticisms at PC Music for reasons that have nothing to do with what GFOTY said. Instead of condemning GFOTY and PC Music, why doesn't reach out to Polly, have an intelligent discussion with her so that they can both understand the situation, the real intent behind the comment, and then come to an honest conclusion. Does that really sound so impossible? Lotic comes off like he's grasping at straws at times in his statement. I'm glad she apologized, it actually seemed sincere rather than Ten Walls (who pretty much made it clear how much of a cloistered nazi he is so he can smoke a turd in hell) and I really hope that this doesn't but a damper on anyone who is offended by GFOTY's comment in the long run. It might but not be relevant but when I listen to PC Music I don't think of privileged white males, or gender or race or class or religion, in fact I don't really think about anything other than how incredible the music sounds and then I mostly just want to dance. Maybe I'm a weirdo
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Post by raindro on Jun 9, 2015 6:00:24 GMT
It might but not be relevant but when I listen to PC Music I don't think of privileged white males, or gender or race or class or religion, in fact I don't really think about anything other than how incredible the music sounds and then I mostly just want to dance. Maybe I'm a weirdo Same here!
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Post by Keith_Courage on Jun 9, 2015 6:30:52 GMT
sorry I had to edit my original post so I had to edit your quote of me raindro (not trying to get all Big Brother on you) but to clarify my edit, I changed "when I think of PC Music" to "when I listen to PC Music". also mentioning creed and religion was redundant. don't want you all to think I edit your posts when you're not looking hehehe.
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Post by dr on Jun 9, 2015 6:34:36 GMT
y'all seem to have hit the nail on the head here with the consensus that something went wrong here that shouldn't have, that GFOTY's comments as they stood were in poor taste, and also that a lot of lotic's comment is just hot air.
one thing I do think he hit on the head though is the weakness of the "conceptual" approach to making music that has been stressed very heavily in interviews by both A.G. and Sophie. But as lotic mentions here, when you appropriate club music trends (house, garage, trap and many pet genres PC artists love to fuck with all happen to have originated in queer/PoC communities) from a playful, experimental, and conceptual angle, the origins and context of these musical signifiers tend to get obscured and left behind.
Now one of the magical things about computer music is how you can divorce a signifier from its history and context, and simply utilize it as one sound in a mix of other sounds. You get lots of cool new hybrid forms like Sophie and AG are so fond of, or even in GFOTY's music where all these traditionally macho club cliches get spun into this girlish nightmare. And I love the hybrid forms, don't get me wrong, I think PC Music does with club music what the Beatles were doing to rock and roll recording in the 60's (maybe it's something about Britain, where artists hear new American music by people of color without being familiar with the context of that music?) – but there is a legitimate criticism of this conceptual distance from the origins of the source material, all the cultural context in which these sounds initially developed (cf. the history of Detroit techno, the relation of southern "trap" rap to the poor black communities it originated in) that gets left behind when you open a laptop and get to work.
Like, these artists wouldn't be dropping off the bill if there wasn't something that genuinely offended them. Maybe this is an angle that PC Music just happens to be vulnerable from, despite their best intentions...
EDIT: I'm aware PC Music is as much genuinely fun, hands-on, and creative as much as it is conceptual. Just wanted to stress that side of it because the press in particular seems to have put a lot of focus on their concepts, and this appears to be at the heart of what's frustrating lotic and others - this conceptual removal that allows performance artists like GFOTY to blunder with her character like she did
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Post by wuchi on Jun 9, 2015 6:48:49 GMT
y'all seem to have hit the nail on the head here with the consensus that something went wrong here that shouldn't have, that GFOTY's comments as they stood were in poor taste, and also that a lot of lotic's comment is just hot air. one thing I do think he hit on the head though is the weakness of the "conceptual" approach to making music that has been stressed very heavily in interviews by both A.G. and Sophie. But as lotic mentions here, when appropriate club music trends (house, garage, trap and many pet genres PC artists love to fuck with all happen to have originated in the quee/PoC communities) from a playful, experimental, and conceptual angle, the origins and context of these musical signifiers gets obscured and left behind. Now one of the magical things about computer music is how you can divorce a signifier from its history and context, and simply utilize it as one sound in a mix of other sounds. You get lots of cool new hybrid forms like Sophie and AG are so fond of, or even in GFOTY's music where all these traditionally macho club cliches get spun into this girlish nightmare. And I love the hybrid forms, don't get me wrong, I think PC Music does with club music what the Beatles were doing to rock and roll recording in the 60's, playing around and experimenting with new sounds – but there is a legitimate criticism of this conceptual distance from the origins of the source material, all the cultural context in which these sounds initially developed (cf. the history of Detroit techno, the relation of southern "trap" rap to the poor black communities it originated in) that get left behind when you open a laptop and get to work. Like, those artists wouldn't be dropping off the bill if there wasn't something that genuinely offended them. Maybe this is an angle that PC Music just happens to be vulnerable from, despite their best intentions... Is that approach not inherently somewhat reductive, though? For music to move forward, it's necessary that those signifiers be played with and adopted into different forms. The appropriation of club music is certainly nothing new: artists have been adapting it into different contexts since the '80's. To expect those genres to stay rooted in the same communities and ideas from which they originated is an impossibility in our increasingly hyper-connected world. I think part of what makes PC so timely and relevant IS the fact that they play with those aspects of postmodernist and accelerationist aesthetics in their music by jumbling tons of pop culture signifiers and sounds into a colorful maximalist collage. Unfortunately the blinders of ideology and the politicized internet climate make it hard for musicians to play with those tropes without being forced to fit some kind of rhetoric. I can understand being upset with GFOTY's comments - but to attack the music itself from the same viewpoint seems to go against having an open-minded and understanding appreciation of art.
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Post by fffawn on Jun 9, 2015 7:05:46 GMT
I don't really think about anything other than how incredible the music sounds and then I mostly just want to dance. Maybe I'm a weirdo if u r so am i
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Post by coolguy on Jun 9, 2015 8:30:21 GMT
Lotic doesn't really like PC Music - he's made it clear before - so seeing this was probably just a case of confirmation bias. HOWEVER, his points are totally valid! Scenes are always appropriated, queer people/PoC are always marginalised, the internet machine does have a habit of whitewashing communities that birth music scenes. He's obviously seen this so many times it must be frustrating for this to keep on happening. Those are all legitimate points he's making, though in this instance I think maybe the target of his criticisms is wrong.
I have said in other threads that in the context of GFOTY's character it can be apparent that her comment was mocking ignorant-white-person-at-a-festival attitudes. BUT that's only because I have an awareness of her character. It was still a very crass thing to say - even if you're trying to take the piss out of ignorant white attitudes, what's to gain by just repeating those attitudes outright? You can say you're joking but where's the joke if people use that sort of language without irony/awareness? Especially with this going up on a huge platform like Noisey UK where the audience is (I'm willing to bet) mostly white, probably fairly comfortably off, and probably not in on the joke?
With that said, GFOTY has apologised and what more can you do when someone's apologised? It was just a joke that backfired in the end. I can imagine people with a pre-existing bias against PC Music will use this as proof that they were 'right all along' but that's also weak as fuck - why wilfully pretend not to get a joke just to prove a point to yourself?
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Post by Keith_Courage on Jun 9, 2015 9:45:06 GMT
HA! I suppose I didn't really need to clarify myself but whatever. you're banned for a million years. BYEEEEE
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Post by ♀ venus ♀ on Jun 9, 2015 10:58:42 GMT
This whole situation reminded me of this quote from GFOTY's Guardian interview:
" “We’re basically the white version of Odd Future,” her face slightly dropping as she realises what she’s said it and how she can never take it back. "
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Post by conor on Jun 9, 2015 12:03:18 GMT
Does seriously nobody here view cultural/musical/artistic appropriation in any regard at all? I really dont mean to sound crass but appropriation has been a huge huge huge huge theme in contemporary art for decades and can be found throughout art history. I wrote a paper on Lichtenstein and his use of appropriation if anyone is interested I could dig it up and share it so people can have a better idea how appropriation of the aforementioned items can still push art and culture forward, and still be truly revolutionary. Conceptual/Abstract art was my forte (I knew the most about it) and then I really saw Lichtenstein's work in a new light and it changed everything. I would be happy to discuss this with any other art nerds (are you out there...q_q). I just think appropriation is one of the most unique and difficult subjects to approach artistically and again.. love discussin this stuff and all my friends like the music but the arty stuff kinda isnt something they like talking about. RANTRANTRANTSORRY docs.google.com/document/d/1jeNZTYa9TG4IIjy6gliGge290vVgbqk9eT9AXTBDK7Y/edit?usp=sharingHey there it is, it sort of touches on similar ideas but within a visual arts context. I hope you read it! Let me know what you think and if it has helped anyone get a better idea of artistic appropriation and the ethics behind it.
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Post by lovergirlsprecinct on Jun 9, 2015 12:34:24 GMT
Yeah, but when we're talking about appropriation of minority cultures than factors relating to oppression, imperialism etc. have to be taken into account.
Lotic's post is mostly off the mark imo. I'm so tired of this whole "female avatars" "appropriation of female culture" bullshit, it's really gender binarist and totally diminishes the contribution of female PC Music members. Like if any females want to counter that go ahead, but I've always found it a really weird and stupid. I've also found it weird when people have gone after PC Music for being too straight or whatever. Like we don't actually really know most of their sexual orientations and I've always felt like there's an inherent "queerness" to a lot of PC Music stuff in general.
I some of what was talked about in that derailed Henrik the Artist thread about representation can be applied here, but "we're all humans, it doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, black or white" is reaaally problematic. Representation matters with everything, including music. Art shouldn't be judged in some vacuum where social justice issues don't matter or are seen as ruining the fun or whatever. I'm too tired to properly verbalise my thoughts right now, but like i said, some good stuff was said on the matter in that other thread.
But yeah, GFOTY's comment is total shit, satire or not, and she totally should of realised how it would come across. People are right to call her out on it. I'm super disappointed in her tbh. This is giving me war flashbacks to the shitty, "satirical" casual racism of a lot of Hipster Runoff articles.
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